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Amounts needed for plugging seem all over the board.  Not sure if you're on any other 5meo groups, but some other larger groups have more experimenters and as far as I can tell, it seems most (though not all) people need more when plugging than when smoking.  Also, most people get longer experiences from it, but mine seem to be about the same length as smoking.  Nottwo seems to luckily be on the more sensitive end of the scale.

And although it seems to take ~5 minutes to come on for most people, a few have said it came on within 60-90 seconds and they were NOT prepared and situated yet.  (Just wanted to give you a heads-up.)

This ROA just seems really variable from person-to-person...so start out extremely low and see if you feel anything.  If nothing, double/triple your dose and try again :-)

As far as my smoking requirements, I guess I can't be sure if my FB has lost any potency over time or not, so that's a possibility.  Also, I find it pretty difficult to get an *ACCURATE* measurement with my $20 mg scale.  It's +/- 3mg accuracy, which is pretty big when using such a small amount.  So I weigh my dose several times to try to get a correct reading, but I don't have a jewelers scale like some on here do.  But assuming my FB is potent and my scale is accurate, when I've tried the 10-13mg level, I've always needed more to release.

Hopefully you're on the more sensitive side and can conserve your stash :-)

Let us know how it goes for you!

[plugging]

So sorry for the confusion - I meant that I and many others need 70ish mg when plugging, not when smoking!!!  When smoking, it's in the 20mg range.


I like the slower onset of plugging, but my FB quantity is limited, and found I didn't like how much I need with that ROA.

I've tried both methods you mention, and both gave the same experience, so I'd say go with the vinegar method for your initial experiences as it works and is extremely simple.


I mixed a single dose at a time.  I mix the FB with 0.5ml of vinegar and dissolved as best I could, then added another 0.5ml of water.


I'm a bit of a hard head when smoking the FB, and found the same with plugging.  I seem to need around 70mg or so of FB (when plugging) to fully release but others need much less...so start low and work your way up as you see how you react.

Are you discussing synthetic or toad venom?  I'm guessing synthetic due to the amount, but could be wrong. 


Others probably have better storage methods, but I've found from working with various powders over the years that paper seems to be the easiest way to move the powder from one location to another without it sticking to sides of containers, baggies, measuring devices, etc.  So I wrap my powders in paper, then place the paper in airtight baggies and/or vials.  Trying to get a small amount of powder out of a glass vial can be a pain...

Why would oral + MAOI be more dangerous than rectal + MAOI?

Generally oral ingestion of a substance goes through the liver and is broken down/converted, while rectal administration may or may not go through the liver.


I don't know all the details, but from reading up on using cannabis oil suppositories, it depends on how deep you administer.


If you stay in the first 1.5inches or so of the rectum, the substance does not get routed through the liver, but if you insert deeper, the substance may indeed be routed through the liver.


I don't know if this affects 5+maoi combinations at all, but I think that's the main difference between oral and rectal administration.

Hi JO_neness,


I'm sorry to hear about the chronic issues you've been dealing with for the last year.


I don't know if you are 'friends' with Martin Ball on facebook or not, but he has been dealing with a severe insomnia issue for the last several months to the point of having to stop working, stop responding to emails, stop doing interviews...basically stop everything except working on his sleep issue and try to recover. 


He's posted many details along the way over the last few months regarding doctors he's seen, treatments he's used, etc. 


While he doesn't believe his issues are 5meo-induced, there are many similar sounding issues between the two of you.  Perhaps if you try to connect with him over facebook or via email, he may respond with some treatment suggestions or other help?   

I'm curious to hear more specifically about 'the presentation' that you do not like.


"Seems to be a savvy, well timed attempt to gain attention"



Do you mean by Tyson specifically?  If so, I agree that may have been intentional by whomever is really behind the Hotboxin' podcast. 


But I didn't get that feeling from his interview on Rogan.  My take was that he was on Rogan to promote his new cannabis venture, and the psychedelic discussions were just something that Tyson is currently very excited about due to his recent Toad experiences.  He brought it up several times, even when Joe turned to other topics.  Tyson was genuinely blown away by 5 and just wanted to talk about it in general.  He obviously is not very eloquent with words, and was horrible at promoting his cannabis venture which he also seems pretty excited about.  So I could be wrong, but I didn't get that Tyson himself was using 5 (or DMT) as an intentional way to gain extra exposure (on Rogan's show anyhow). 


But whether it was intentional or not, Tyson may be able to help expose psychedelics in general and 5 specifically to some people that wouldn't otherwise hear about them...and I think that's a good thing :-)

One person in the facebook group "Toad & 5-MeO Forum & Support" recently reported that over time, his full release dose has decreased down to as low as 10-20mg TOAD, with 20-30 being his sweet spot.

Martin Ball recently took 5 while being hooked up, and at his Exploring Psychedelics conference the researchers had a discussion after showing video of the event.  Perhaps audio of that discussion will be released on Martin's podcast over the next few months.  Possibly some members here made it to the conference?  (I was unable to attend).  Jeff Tarant is the name of the researcher listed on the Exploring Psychedelics website...perhaps he would be someone worth trying to connect with?


There is also a local guy named Dr. Juan Acosta that I recently met (San Francisco area) who has been doing EEG/psychedelic research for a few decades and he presented at the recent WBAC.  His website is neuroshamanism.com .  Perhaps you'd be interested in some of the papers he's released on his site, and maybe he would be worth contacting?

Have you read Tryptamine Palace by James Oroc?  He has a chapter with a theory that might be similar (or maybe completely different) where he theorizes the psychedelic experience akin to a Bose-Einstein condensate from my recollection.  I admit I haven't read the book in many years and don't recall the details, but maybe worth reviewing to see if it's anything similar to what you're considering?

Thank you for your beautiful and well-explained account.  I hope my first experience is as magnificent as yours!

I have a few questions while waiting for your longer trip report...


So 8mg was enough for a full release for you? 


Were you able to see your ego re-form as you came down? 


Did you have any 'personal/egoic' insights?


I'm very curious to hear your expanded description of the experience!!

     I am so happy for you,  and looking forward to your more detailed description 

My recollection from reading some of Stanislov Grof's books about his LSD experiments (and Doblin's mdma studies...Strassman's...etc.) seem to indicate that secular language is commonly used during those types of 'medically accepted' therapy sessions, no?  And the results seem to speak for themselves.  Secular language seems to work just fine.  I'm on board :-)

I agree that when he first started going through his 5-Meo process back around 2009 and shortly thereafter, he came off as very blunt and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.  Sincere, but blunt and at times abrasive.

Nowadays, he comes off much more 'gentle' in his podcasts/lectures/interviews.  He hasn't changed his beliefs, but his presentation and overall demeanor seem much more tolerable to the masses.  Over the last few years, he has been interviewed on many different podcasts...usually giving roughly the same information on each, but he is much easier on the interviewers when their beliefs differ from his.

I also agree there may be other people doing what he did during his sessions that aren't promoting it.  But he IS willing to describe his experiences in detail to the world, and was willing to go on video to show his method.  For those interested in this type of thing, it could have been very useful. 

BTW - I've not heard him say he moves 'dark' energy out of people.  To me, using the term 'dark' implies 'evil' or something similar.  He certainly does not believe in 'evil' of any kind.  He does say he helps remove 'stuck' energy.

He states that he used to occasionally purge the stuck energy for his clients in their initial/early sessions (many of his clients had several sessions) - which seemed to allow them to then have a full release.  After a while they would purge on their own if they didn't do it themselves initially.  Hard to say what was really happening, but the effect seemed to be that the client was able to move forward in some way.

But after one client tried to kill him by beating the shit out of him a couple years ago during their first hit, he says he started purging for everyone almost right away - possibly his body's way of trying to prevent that situation from happening again.  He said he lost about 30 pounds from then on and led him towards his retirement. 

He also says during heavy periods, he had 3-5 clients per week.  With each client, they usually did 3 rounds of the medicine.  He did a full dose with them each round.  He did this for about 7 years.  After 4000+ doses himself, and watching his clients reactions over that time, I would have felt very comfortable in believing that he knew what he was doing :-)