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Seeking toad endangerment info

Started by Nobodytobe123, November 18, 2017, 10:05:53 AM

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Nobodytobe123

Hi friends,

I was told by a friend to look here for info on the endangerment of the sonoran desert toad, but i did not have sufficient access to view that article...

Seems it should be made visible to the public if it is important enough. Thoughts?

Handshake

Welcome! Now that you've made your intro post, you will have access to all message boards on the forum.

Here is a link to the thread you seek: https://forums.5meodmt.org/index.php/topic,50443.0.html

Nobodytobe123

Thanks HumbleVoyager. I figured out that I was able to read that article once I had posted. I guess it is an automatic access thing.

Then I read some other experience reports (from a friend and also these: www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/experience/toad.html) and an interview with Octavio Rettig https://www.zamnesia.com/blog-an-interview-with-octavio-rettig-n1216. From all that I gleaned that there does seem to be a reason to prefer toad venom over synthetic 5-meo-dmt, at least according to a number of folks (not very scientific sorry).

More importantly, I've decided to stop thinking about 5-meo-dmt and toad venom completely after reading Rettig's warning about how dangerous it is, even with an M.D. administering it. Rettig is one of the foremost proponents of this stuff and so his warning against dabbling in it seems all the more worth listening to.

Handshake

Quote from: Nobodytobe123 on November 18, 2017, 03:21:27 PM
Thanks HumbleVoyager. I figured out that I was able to read that article once I had posted. I guess it is an automatic access thing.

Then I read some other experience reports (from a friend and also these: www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/experience/toad.html) and an interview with Octavio Rettig https://www.zamnesia.com/blog-an-interview-with-octavio-rettig-n1216. From all that I gleaned that there does seem to be a reason to prefer toad venom over synthetic 5-meo-dmt, at least according to a number of folks (not very scientific sorry).

More importantly, I've decided to stop thinking about 5-meo-dmt and toad venom completely after reading Rettig's warning about how dangerous it is, even with an M.D. administering it. Rettig is one of the foremost proponents of this stuff and so his warning against dabbling in it seems all the more worth listening to.

Octavio Rettig is hardly a reliable source of information regarding this molecule. The best accounts are given by James Oroc and most prominently by Ralph Metzner. I would suggest reading those before jumping to any conclusions given by toad propagandists. There is considerable controversy between the organic/synthetic forms of 5-MeO-DMT but ultimately the most seasoned users will say that while there are subtle differences, the experience is the same and the healing potential is equal with both forms as long as equivalent doses are used. 5-MeO-DMT is of course considerably dangerous in its own right, no matter what form it comes in and that is part of the reason for this forum, to help educate and reduce the chances for harmful effects to come from the use of this molecule. There are, in fact, safe ways of working with this molecule that do not require a medical degree to implement.

Further Reading:

Nobodytobe123

Thanks for that info... it's a bit overwhelming tho to have to look at 2 books in order to simply determine if there is a safe way of using this substance. I doubt many people would bother with that. And from what I read here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75496  Bancopuma said that Oroc recommends using high doses at first, which sounds quite unsafe to me.

So, if you think that the very slow incremental dose increase suggested by Bancopuma is the safest way to go (it sounds like it to me), do we have any evidence that this is, indeed, safe? I mean, assuming that people would even do it correctly (quite hard to measure less than a milligram reliably, even... tho the toad venom would be easier in that sense due to less potency per mg).

I can imagine, for instance, that if you are the type of person to have a negative reaction to the substance, you will have it at a certain dose. Let's say at 10mg. At 9mg you might feel something a bit off, but you might say, well, it didn't harm me too much. Then you may try 9mg again and maybe not feel so bad from it, so you might say, ok, let me try 10mg now. And that might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back... ?

Forgive me for my speculation as someone who has only used 5 a few times myself.

Handshake

Quote from: Nobodytobe123 on November 19, 2017, 08:03:23 AM
Thanks for that info... it's a bit overwhelming tho to have to look at 2 books in order to simply determine if there is a safe way of using this substance. I doubt many people would bother with that. And from what I read here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75496  Bancopuma said that Oroc recommends using high doses at first, which sounds quite unsafe to me.

So, if you think that the very slow incremental dose increase suggested by Bancopuma is the safest way to go (it sounds like it to me), do we have any evidence that this is, indeed, safe? I mean, assuming that people would even do it correctly (quite hard to measure less than a milligram reliably, even... tho the toad venom would be easier in that sense due to less potency per mg).

I can imagine, for instance, that if you are the type of person to have a negative reaction to the substance, you will have it at a certain dose. Let's say at 10mg. At 9mg you might feel something a bit off, but you might say, well, it didn't harm me too much. Then you may try 9mg again and maybe not feel so bad from it, so you might say, ok, let me try 10mg now. And that might be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back... ?

Forgive me for my speculation as someone who has only used 5 a few times myself.

Yes, there is sufficient anecdotal evidence to suggest that within normal accepted doses of 5-MeO-DMT, the molecule is quite safe. The dangerous aspects of this molecule are only truly expressed if the individual has a pre-existing heart condition, seizure disorder, has mixed 5-MeO-DMT with other substances (especially MAOIs), or when very high doses are used (20+mg of synthetic vaporized, 90+mg toad venom vaporized). Ralph Metzner talks about the safety profile of 5-MeO-DMT in normal active doses being as safe as nnDMT.

In terms of titrating dosage, it would make sense to try something like 5mg, then 8mg, then 10mg, and so on with the synthetic and stepping up by 10mg at a time with the organic toad venom.

Nobodytobe123

I myself have no diagnosed health issues, yet I felt even with medium doses that my heart was under extreme strain. Nothing at all like N,N,DMT. So, I feel it would be unsafe, just based on that body sensation, to use a higher dose. I've heard other people say "It's hard on the heart, but as long as you don't have heart issues you will be ok." But somehow, that's not very convincing to me. How could you ever know if you have some issue that hasn't surfaced which could be triggered by 5?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, as I don't see any way of bridging the gap, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Obviously, everyone must weigh the perceived risks and benefits for themselves, with any activity.

Probably if I felt there was a potentially awesome benefit that couldn't be easily obtained otherwise, I'd be all for spreading the good news of 5. It certainly seems more powerful than anything else, tho I don't really think that "More POWER" equals "More insight" nor "more liberation", even tho it may certainly produce more ego-death unity type experiences. But that's a whole other discussion which I'm not very good at.

Flux

Hi nobodytobe123

There is an archive of articles in the Media/Resources section here under article https://forums.5meodmt.org/index.php/topic,50347.0.html
and also in the section under Wikis; https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/5-MeO-DMT#Pharmacology.2C_toxicity_and_general_safety

Also the following is a document published by Martin Ball as "a clear and easy to understand guide in question and answer format concerning the use of 5-MeO-DMT as an entheogenic tool for expansion of human awareness" http://www.scribd.com/do...6/5-Meo-DMT-User-s-Guide

Nobodytobe123

Thanks Flux. The last link is broken. I took a peek at the other areas linked, found a bit of info.

Handshake

Quote from: Nobodytobe123 on November 22, 2017, 10:24:45 AM
Thanks Flux. The last link is broken. I took a peek at the other areas linked, found a bit of info.

Here's the corrected link:
https://www.scribd.com/document/27779396/5-Meo-DMT-User-s-Guide

Nobodytobe123

Thanks HumbleVoyager. I read that guide.

Seems that some folks feel 5 is pretty dangerous (compared to ayahuasca), and others don't. One of my friends even thinks that there is a government propaganda campaign to make it seem dangerous a la prior campaigns against LSD and weed. I personally don't think that is the case, but maybe.

When i first made ayahuasca, i did so because a quick Google search told me it was the most powerful psychedelic. Following the dose i read on an erowid trip report, i took about 20x more than a strong dose of mimosa. Luckily i was able to purge most of that out.

I am really glad i chose ayahuasca to overdose on rather than 5. But had the me of 6yrs ago found that 5 was the most powerful psychedelic, i may have OD'd on it and (physically) died.

I am glad this forum exists and i hope that safety with 5 is always emphasized before mentioning benefits, just in case some fool like me comes along, reads a little, skips the rest, and is never heard from again.

Handshake

Quote from: Nobodytobe123 on November 22, 2017, 03:23:27 PM
I am glad this forum exists and i hope that safety with 5 is always emphasized before mentioning benefits, just in case some fool like me comes along, reads a little, skips the rest, and is never heard from again.

This is what it's all about :)